The enshitification of Gnome continues until it be it’s own little isolated thing and previous gnome code will have to be forked to make progress that users actually want.
That will probably go for gnome apps eventually. The Mint guys might have to rewrite all the bloody apps to work with gnome 3…🤦
How about when the theming is baked in and impossible to change?
Enshittification doesn’t have to be monetary. It’s about doing things that go against the interests of the user.
Unfortunately Gnome has taken to heart St. Exupery’s law (“perfection is not when there’s nothing left to add, but when there’s nothing left to take away”) but have forgotten that it was coined in an era of mechanical devices and there’s more than one aspect to software. Applying it to functionality is very different from applying it to features and customization. The latter ends up making software feel bland and oppressive.
How about when the theming is baked in and impossible to change?
It’s not impossible to change, people alter it all the time. E.g. with Gradience. Either way, it still wouldn’t make it enshitification.
Enshitification != when an app from an open source project has a theme that’s harder to change.
Unfortunately Gnome has taken to heart St. Exupery’s law
Yawn. The usual “hur dur what’s Gnome removed this time???” line that doesn’t even make any sense. Go look at changelogs for Gnome updates and you’ll see that meme is bullshit. Stuff was removed in the Gnome 3 migration, what 13 or 14 years ago? It’s time to move on.
And again, still nothing to do with enshitification even if Gnome were trimming features out all the time, which they aren’t.
You people really need to learn what enshitification means instead of just latching onto the newest buzzword and applying it to everything. It’s like when companies call everything AI now lol
How about when the theming is baked in and impossible to change?
It can still be changed, it’s just a harder to do so.
It’s about doing things that go against the interests of the user.
This conveniently ignores that app developers are also users of ui frameworks, and they would like a well defined platform to test for, rather than an endless stream of distros each with its own theme that could break their app.
No. It’s deliberately breaking backwards compatibility to force other projects that use that code to either look bland like Gnome or stop making their DE’s.
No, it’s theming their own project to look however they want it to.
bland like Gnome
Gnome looks amazing. It’s objectively the most consistent and polished DE out there, and IMO the best looking one.
or stop making their DE’s.
Lmao is this what you think? There’s a secret cabal of Gnome developers who think that by making the Libadwaita theme and using it in their own Gnome apps, it will kill other DEs? Can you actually hear yourself?
That conspiracy theory doesn’t even make sense. Care to tell us your opinions on the moon landing? I imagine they’ll be quite funny.
Who said anything about a conspiracy? I’m just saying they may be acting selfishly and it couldn’t hurt to speak to other parties who they know use their code, to discuss how it will impact them.
It’s deliberately breaking backwards compatibility to force other projects that use that code to either look bland like Gnome or stop making their DE’s.
You’re asserting that the Gnome team is secretly working together (i.e. conspiring) with the explicit aim of enforcing DEs to look like Gnome (idk how they could force that but whatever), or to stop making their DEs altogether (similarly, I can’t see the logic there. Unless you believe that only Gnome devs are skilled enough to make Linux programs and other DEs just have to take what Gnome makes. But that’s an absurd suggestion).
It’s not a conspiracy. All I was saying is that by breaking backwards compatibility downstream either has to comply or find another way.
As another commentor has mentioned, gnome did actually inform downstream a good while back but downstream did not engage, so gnome obviously proceeded with their own project how they saw fit. Which is the right way of course.
Downstream should have tried to engage and perhaps found a good work around but sadly didn’t.
Didn’t that happen a long time ago which is how we got MATE?
I no longer follow developments in GTK based DEs much because nowadays KDE Plasma is so clearly the best choice for me, but it has long been my impression that GNOME just wants to be its own thing that doesn’t really care about anyone not using GNOME. This is probably because the main role of GNOME is to be the DE for installations commercially supported by Canonical, Red Hat, etc.
It’s not up to GNOME to do others work for them. If Mint wants a specific styling for their desktop, they should fork it (which they’re already doing) since everything is open source. It’s not like GNOME is gonna hunt them down for forking and creating a new product altogether lmfao. Cut the crap.
Gnome Foundation likes to think of themselves as the pioneer in DE’s and the default choice for Linux. Which was true for a long time. Cinnamon and Mate run Gnome, for example. I’m not sure about XFCE.
If you’re THE leading DE project at least try to accommodate those DE’s that depend on your code or meet with them to inform them well in advance and discuss the best options for those DE’s.
In other words, work together for the good of all users instead of doing your own little thing in the corner and leave the others to deal with the mess you made…
I think the topic of LibAdwaita was discussed plenty when shit hit the fan 2-3 years ago. Downstream developers can’t act all innocent and misinformed now when there was a huge drama between Budgie and GNOME upon LibAdwaita’s announcement.
GNOME developers repeatedly asked downstream developers to stop theming their apps which was generating endless bug reports for issues not caused by upstream code and none of them bothered to listen to them or work with them on a fix. Their choice of developing their own widget kit is a wise one because they’d otherwise still be wasting valuable developer time on fixing issues they should not be responsible for.
When one doesn’t take “no” for an answer, you’d have to forcibly make them stop. Just my two cents 🤷🏻♂️
If you’re THE leading DE project at least try to accommodate those DE’s that depend on your code or meet with them to inform them well in advance and discuss the best options for those DE’s.
It’s always easy to say that other people should do more work to benefit others. Libawaita isn’t anything new. It was announced loads of times.
In other words, work together for the good of all users
That the current status isn’t what you want isn’t the same as not working together. Further, there’s usually a limited amount of time and attention.
Within Linux there’s loads and loads of opinions. Loads of different desktop environments. That complexity cost development time. Time that isn’t infinite. Again, it seems to easy to direct how others should spend their time and/or to argue that they aren’t doing enough for your liking.
They are not pioneers, they are Microsoft funded group (at the beginning, at least) with task to slow down desktop Linux adoption. KDE, even then, was better than MS Windows.
Before you downvote me, check the guy named Miguel De Icaza
They are not pioneers, they are Microsoft funded group (at the beginning, at least)
In the beginning in 1997 GNOME was a direct response to KDE using Qt toolkit with a license that GNU with RMS did not like at all. Not sure why you mention Microsoft and funded ? When I search for it I see that M$ gave 10K to GNOME in 2022, more than two decades later.
The enshitification of Gnome continues until it be it’s own little isolated thing and previous gnome code will have to be forked to make progress that users actually want.
That will probably go for gnome apps eventually. The Mint guys might have to rewrite all the bloody apps to work with gnome 3…🤦
Enshitification != when a DE has some theming for its apps I don’t like.
“Enshitification” must be the most misused buzzword in the tech space right now. That or every algorithm being “AI” now.
How about when the theming is baked in and impossible to change?
Enshittification doesn’t have to be monetary. It’s about doing things that go against the interests of the user.
Unfortunately Gnome has taken to heart St. Exupery’s law (“perfection is not when there’s nothing left to add, but when there’s nothing left to take away”) but have forgotten that it was coined in an era of mechanical devices and there’s more than one aspect to software. Applying it to functionality is very different from applying it to features and customization. The latter ends up making software feel bland and oppressive.
It’s not impossible to change, people alter it all the time. E.g. with Gradience. Either way, it still wouldn’t make it enshitification.
Enshitification != when an app from an open source project has a theme that’s harder to change.
Yawn. The usual “hur dur what’s Gnome removed this time???” line that doesn’t even make any sense. Go look at changelogs for Gnome updates and you’ll see that meme is bullshit. Stuff was removed in the Gnome 3 migration, what 13 or 14 years ago? It’s time to move on.
And again, still nothing to do with enshitification even if Gnome were trimming features out all the time, which they aren’t.
You people really need to learn what enshitification means instead of just latching onto the newest buzzword and applying it to everything. It’s like when companies call everything AI now lol
the definition of enshittification is absolutely about money, it doesn’t just mean “making things worse”
It can still be changed, it’s just a harder to do so.
This conveniently ignores that app developers are also users of ui frameworks, and they would like a well defined platform to test for, rather than an endless stream of distros each with its own theme that could break their app.
No. It’s deliberately breaking backwards compatibility to force other projects that use that code to either look bland like Gnome or stop making their DE’s.
That’s bad for FLOSS and Linux users
No, it’s theming their own project to look however they want it to.
Gnome looks amazing. It’s objectively the most consistent and polished DE out there, and IMO the best looking one.
Lmao is this what you think? There’s a secret cabal of Gnome developers who think that by making the Libadwaita theme and using it in their own Gnome apps, it will kill other DEs? Can you actually hear yourself?
That conspiracy theory doesn’t even make sense. Care to tell us your opinions on the moon landing? I imagine they’ll be quite funny.
Who said anything about a conspiracy? I’m just saying they may be acting selfishly and it couldn’t hurt to speak to other parties who they know use their code, to discuss how it will impact them.
You did. To quote your assertion:
You’re asserting that the Gnome team is secretly working together (i.e. conspiring) with the explicit aim of enforcing DEs to look like Gnome (idk how they could force that but whatever), or to stop making their DEs altogether (similarly, I can’t see the logic there. Unless you believe that only Gnome devs are skilled enough to make Linux programs and other DEs just have to take what Gnome makes. But that’s an absurd suggestion).
It’s not a conspiracy. All I was saying is that by breaking backwards compatibility downstream either has to comply or find another way.
As another commentor has mentioned, gnome did actually inform downstream a good while back but downstream did not engage, so gnome obviously proceeded with their own project how they saw fit. Which is the right way of course.
Downstream should have tried to engage and perhaps found a good work around but sadly didn’t.
So they’ll have to work it out now by themselves.
Didn’t that happen a long time ago which is how we got MATE?
I no longer follow developments in GTK based DEs much because nowadays KDE Plasma is so clearly the best choice for me, but it has long been my impression that GNOME just wants to be its own thing that doesn’t really care about anyone not using GNOME. This is probably because the main role of GNOME is to be the DE for installations commercially supported by Canonical, Red Hat, etc.
From what others have replied, this seems to be an old issue and it seems Gnome was actually in the right.
I wasn’t aware of that history. Here’s the reply that helped straighten it out: https://lemmy.world/comment/9847230
It’s not up to GNOME to do others work for them. If Mint wants a specific styling for their desktop, they should fork it (which they’re already doing) since everything is open source. It’s not like GNOME is gonna hunt them down for forking and creating a new product altogether lmfao. Cut the crap.
Gnome Foundation likes to think of themselves as the pioneer in DE’s and the default choice for Linux. Which was true for a long time. Cinnamon and Mate run Gnome, for example. I’m not sure about XFCE.
If you’re THE leading DE project at least try to accommodate those DE’s that depend on your code or meet with them to inform them well in advance and discuss the best options for those DE’s.
In other words, work together for the good of all users instead of doing your own little thing in the corner and leave the others to deal with the mess you made…
I think the topic of LibAdwaita was discussed plenty when shit hit the fan 2-3 years ago. Downstream developers can’t act all innocent and misinformed now when there was a huge drama between Budgie and GNOME upon LibAdwaita’s announcement.
GNOME developers repeatedly asked downstream developers to stop theming their apps which was generating endless bug reports for issues not caused by upstream code and none of them bothered to listen to them or work with them on a fix. Their choice of developing their own widget kit is a wise one because they’d otherwise still be wasting valuable developer time on fixing issues they should not be responsible for.
When one doesn’t take “no” for an answer, you’d have to forcibly make them stop. Just my two cents 🤷🏻♂️
Thank you for that context. I was unaware of that.
I certainly get your point. If downstream won’t engage constructively then upstream is free to do what they feel is right.
It’s always easy to say that other people should do more work to benefit others. Libawaita isn’t anything new. It was announced loads of times.
That the current status isn’t what you want isn’t the same as not working together. Further, there’s usually a limited amount of time and attention.
Within Linux there’s loads and loads of opinions. Loads of different desktop environments. That complexity cost development time. Time that isn’t infinite. Again, it seems to easy to direct how others should spend their time and/or to argue that they aren’t doing enough for your liking.
Indeed.
Someone else replied to me with fantastic context I want aware of.
Here’s their reply: https://lemmy.world/comment/9847230
It seems Gnome did try to work with downstream but the engagement wasn’t there.
They are not pioneers, they are Microsoft funded group (at the beginning, at least) with task to slow down desktop Linux adoption. KDE, even then, was better than MS Windows. Before you downvote me, check the guy named Miguel De Icaza
In the beginning in 1997 GNOME was a direct response to KDE using Qt toolkit with a license that GNU with RMS did not like at all. Not sure why you mention Microsoft and funded ? When I search for it I see that M$ gave 10K to GNOME in 2022, more than two decades later.
I was there back then, saw what MS did to BeOS and other competition. GNOME is slowing desktop Linux down all this time… People shold wake up already…
So was I never saw MS involved. Gnome and GTK was in response to QT.
It is entirely possible to do something in secrecy, you know? Read Muigel’s bio, especially last part where he spits on his creation.